Talking With Steve Wacker About... You Know What

[Rich Johnston]

So Spider-Man editor Steve Wacker got embroiled took part in a Twitter conversation this morning about Spider-Man being or not being a rapist, with self-confessed troll KBox. I got mentioned because of the article I wrote last week "Rape, Redemption And The Amazing Spider-Man".

I asked Steve if he'd appreciate a Twitter conversation on the topic from someone who wasn't, as KBox admitted, deliberately trying to annoy him. So we had at it. I'm not sure if I had any success but I think I had a revelation along the way.

Here's how it went down.

@richjohnston It's an important topic I care deeply about. But it has nothing to do with the contents of my Spider-Man comic.

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker but by putting NuPeter (has anyone called him that yet?) in a sexual situation with MJW, the issue is raised.

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@richjohnston Sure...just like in Jekyll &Hyde or FaceOff. But it quickly escalated to hysterical cries of "they're showing rape in Spidey!"

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker this is absolutely true. But it's an issue raised in those as well. In Jekyll/Hyde it's intrinsic, but only after the twist

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@richjohnston I await the cries of Stevenson advocating rape.

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker that's the thing. I never accused you of advocating rape. I saw it as a measure of NuPeter, and addressed it in that light.

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker no it's not, I don't think comics are horrible today and what I wrote didnt say that either.

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@richjohnston I think you're anxious to show off how smarter you are than super hero comics. It's a common trait in older fans.

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker you had MJW ripping off NuPeter's clothes, believing he was really Peter, initiating a sexual situation. It was raised.

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@richjohnston That's a giant leap from someone tired of the conventions of super hero comics.

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker I don't think that's a true depiction of me, and I don't think it's a giant leap either.

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@richjohnston That's a very Rich Johnston sentiment. "I'm not SAYING it IS, but WHAT IF IT IS???!!! Oh, wait: Israel!!"

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

@richjohnston It's not in the least, but don't pretend it's in the comic.

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker don't pretend it isn't. That's all I'm getting, it's either deception, blinkers or a mistake to suggest it isn't.

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker right now my instinct is to say deception, you are are storytellers after all...

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@richjohnston Superior Spider-Man 1 on sale January 9th. Oh and pick up Captain Marvel 9 too!

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker will do!

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker absolutely not. I was in praise of 700 because I thought it was smart.

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@richjohnston Thanks, but I stand by my point.

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker doesn't stop it from being wrong.

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker of course, I don't think it was a bad thing it was raised. I thought it was deliberate.

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@richjohnston It was Pete and MJ drama is at the heart of the book. But to jump to cries of rape is silly and diminishes the topic.

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

@richjohnston I know. I read it...it just fed the usual suspects. And you got Rape in your headline which helped you personally! And Israel!

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker but the implications of his actions in real world law are considered.

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@richjohnston When we want to. It's a soap opera Rich. And you know it.Verisimilitude is an option, not a necessity.

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker it's like saying murder has nothing to do with a Punisher comic. The issue is raised by the contents of the comic.

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@richjohnston That is nonsense considering the Punisher actually murders people.

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker then in your previous words, "call the cops". No one actually murders anyone.

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker certainly legislation in different locations varies on this. In the UK a sexual relationship between the two would be rape.

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@richjohnston This where the conversation gets nuts. Arbitrarily bringing In real world law? Really? In super hero comics? Don't stop there!

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker Dan Slott actively did this in She Hulk, including cases of superhero rape. I don't see why this should be different.

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@richjohnston Sorry we aren't making the comic you think we should.

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker straw man. I think if you do portray the pair in a sexual relationship as they are now, you have raised the topic of rape.

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@richjohnston Not a straw man. An actual man. Guess you'll have to read the story. Doc is a pretty bad guy for sure.

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

@richjohnston @stephenwacker how about having this conversation after the plot has happened, eh? SSM 1 isn't out yet. Pick it up in a year.

? Paul Fosten (@PFoz) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker I'm expecting a story of redemption. Rape is an issue which was raised by 700, but not followed through. Expected that of SSM

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@pfoz @richjohnston Ha...no chance. Rich knows a good thing when he has it. This will get several articles. Spideytroversy always works!

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker if he has sex with MJW without telling her who he is, it's an issue. If he doesn't, its also an issue. The redemption of Otto

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@richjohnston If that happens, I hope it IS an issue. We always need moresoap opera and drama.!

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker but then you can't expect people not to ask whether or not it would be rape in that circumstance

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker but yes, it's a serial medium with more to come. Anyone who dismisses spider-man as a rapist based on ASM 700 is wrong

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker asking the question if he will be a rapist is not wrong, and the question is raised by 700 and 15.1. You dismissed that.

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@richjohnston People can ask all sorts of questions. You can find readers who swear we're anti-Semitic too.

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

@richjohnston I dismissed that Spidey comics are a platform for a discussion about rape. We deal in dual identity every mon.

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker then sex has to be kept out if it, or the issue can be raised, especially in these circumstances. And has before.

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker I think you should own the issues you raise!

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker if you are not addressing this point then it's irresponsible. Dan seems to suggest he is addressing the point.

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@richjohnston Dan said read issue 2. I agree. More Pete and MJ in issue 2. You may not be happy though. So start your faux-outrage engines!

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker there wasn't outrage, faux or otherwise, in that article or these tweets

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@richjohnston But more importantly Rape and Spidey were close together. I worked on newspapers, Rich. I know the hamhanded trick.

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker if I was after an exploitative headline, there were many more that would have done the trick better.

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@richjohnston ! Other headlines like the sick kid you mean? Please stop with the Mother Teresa act. We all get that you're a sensitive hero!

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker that headline was "um..."

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@richjohnston @stephenwacker u guys playing comic world's Dawson's Creek...? I think better head to bed...Thanks 4 keepin me awake last 3hrs

? philip tan (@philipsytan) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker @richjohnston Hi Steve, I'm on record on here calling you my fave editor. Love all your books, but I think Rich is right here

? Alex Jamieson (@Alex_Jamieson) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker @richjohnston If Ock and MJ sleep together and she thinks she is Peter, you would be portraying a real world crime

? Alex Jamieson (@Alex_Jamieson) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker @richjohnston One that should be portrayed responsibly, even if it is "superhero comics".

? Alex Jamieson (@Alex_Jamieson) December 29, 2012

@alex_jamieson @richjohnston We actually celebrate real world crimes every month in our books. It's the outrage that's selective.

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

@alex_jamieson @richjohnston But you support vigilantism?

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

@alex_jamieson @stephenwacker not necessarily. Check New York State law...

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@alex_jamieson @richjohnston Fair enough. It hasn't been "portrayed" in my Spider-Man comic though.

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

@alex_jamieson @stephenwacker although if that had been changed by the amount of shapeshifters around, who knows

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker @richjohnston And you can't use that antisemitism example. That's their opinion. Ock/MJ would categorically be rape in UK law

? Alex Jamieson (@Alex_Jamieson) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker indeed, there been little commentary about murder yet. I'm sure that's to come...

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@alex_jamieson @richjohnston I have to tell my writers to now keep the laws of every country in mind when crafting super hero stories?

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker Dan Slott wrote a comic about superhero law. I don't think you need to tell him a thing!

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@richjohnston Rich, you're being facile. Im talking about this comic.

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker @richjohnston This is true. I know I'm preempting story in SSM and I usually trust you but your response to Rich alarmed me

? Alex Jamieson (@Alex_Jamieson) December 29, 2012

@alex_jamieson @richjohnston then you come wired a bit too tightly.

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker @richjohnston I accept vigilantism for the sake of genre, plus Marvel portray it as a crime. Rape is many magnitudes worse.

? Alex Jamieson (@Alex_Jamieson) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker @richjohnston No, just explaining why British people would refer to a potential sexual encounter between MJ/Ock in this way

? Alex Jamieson (@Alex_Jamieson) December 29, 2012

@alex_jamieson @richjohnston We Do not portray vigilantism asa crime. We portray it as heroic. See Spider-Man.

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker @alex_jamieson It gets portrayed as both.

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker @alex_jamieson Back and forth, depending on circumstances, but Spider-Man has often had police after him for it.

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@richjohnston @alex_jamieson And yet Spider-Man carries on endangering police. Where's the petitions?

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

@stephenwacker @alex_jamieson No petitions from me...

? Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012

@richjohnston You don't, but you don't mind playing to that crowd in hopes of riling up. There's no one left you're fooling with this, Rich.

? Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012

The tweets are still continuing... at some point, Steve Wacker will go to bed. Not yet though.

[Matt Spatola]

I might be upsetting some folks but I think Rich comes off worse in the whole exchange. When I cut through Steve's usual snark I think his responses make sense from his position as editor and 'wait and see' is a viable answer. His digs of Rich's attention seeking headlines are ones that many a reader here complain of as well.

[Cavemold]

SW brings up a good point we wil wait and see. Im going have to read the spoilers or buy the comic. Im intrested in this than otto fighting a bunxh of c listers.

[StarCruncher]

Rich cares about the rape issue!
(as long as it brings teh clixx)

I really wish Twitter posts could be reformatted to read easier, but I guess Ockrape is more important.

[Cavemold]

If they need bring up real life situations im all for it. Beats what dan done so far..

[Pariscub]

I'm amazed that people have so much time to waste on Twitter when they could be preparing to celebrate the new year.

[Cavemold]

Rich cares about the rape issue!
(as long as it brings teh clixx)

I really wish Twitter posts could be reformatted to read easier, but I guess Ockrape is more important.

Go to the main page much easier

[Cavemold]

I'm amazed that people have so much time to waste on Twitter when they could be preparing to celebrate the new year.

Dude its two days to go

[starman]

SSM #2. NuPeter and MJ shack up.

[cforshaw67220]

I might be upsetting some folks but I think Rich comes off worse in the whole exchange. When I cut through Steve's usual snark I think his responses make sense from his position as editor and 'wait and see' is a viable answer. His digs of Rich's attention seeking headlines are ones that many a reader here complain of as well.

So long as you forget that Wacker doesn't even seem to understand Spider-Man comics - "Do you support vigilante-ism?" "Um, no, and neither does your comic where the police and the mayor are always trying to bring up that very issue. Meanwhile, the fact that you do not even address the issue of rape when there is a rape is disturbing. Would you have a character be murdered, and then pretend it didn't matter?"

Wacker just seems to be doing what a lot of people in comics do - keep it a boys club and pretend that their juvenile masculine power fantasies are completely fine, even if it does extend to what is definitely, definitely rape.

Just remember how proud Marvel was of Bendis on The Avengers - a book where, frequently, the only female characters were a mother and wife (Jessica Jones), a heroine Bendis didn't take serious (Squirrel Girl), cameos (like Echo), and female knock-offs of male heroes (Ms. Marvel, Spider-Woman). Well, except for that one time Tigra got a prolonged beating from The Hood and his goons... They didn't even address that when he relaunched the book that every man was on the team because of some genuine tactical reason, and Spider-Woman was there because she was "sassy".

So, yes, Marvel is in the wrong, and Marvel has form in being like this.