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Talking With Steve Wacker About… You Know What
So Spider-Man editor Steve Wacker got embroiled took part in a Twitter conversation this morning about Spider-Man being or not being a rapist, with self-confessed troll KBox. I got mentioned because of the article I wrote last week "Rape, Redemption And The Amazing Spider-Man".
I asked Steve if he'd appreciate a Twitter conversation on the topic from someone who wasn't, as KBox admitted, deliberately trying to annoy him. So we had at it. I'm not sure if I had any success but I think I had a revelation along the way.
Here's how it went down.
@richjohnston It's an important topic I care deeply about. But it has nothing to do with the contents of my Spider-Man comic.
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker but by putting NuPeter (has anyone called him that yet?) in a sexual situation with MJW, the issue is raised.
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@richjohnston Sure…just like in Jekyll &Hyde or FaceOff. But it quickly escalated to hysterical cries of "they're showing rape in Spidey!"
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker this is absolutely true. But it's an issue raised in those as well. In Jekyll/Hyde it's intrinsic, but only after the twist
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@richjohnston I await the cries of Stevenson advocating rape.
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker that's the thing. I never accused you of advocating rape. I saw it as a measure of NuPeter, and addressed it in that light.
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker no it's not, I don't think comics are horrible today and what I wrote didnt say that either.
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@richjohnston I think you're anxious to show off how smarter you are than super hero comics. It's a common trait in older fans.
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker you had MJW ripping off NuPeter's clothes, believing he was really Peter, initiating a sexual situation. It was raised.
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@richjohnston That's a giant leap from someone tired of the conventions of super hero comics.
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker I don't think that's a true depiction of me, and I don't think it's a giant leap either.
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@richjohnston That's a very Rich Johnston sentiment. "I'm not SAYING it IS, but WHAT IF IT IS???!!! Oh, wait: Israel!!"
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
@richjohnston It's not in the least, but don't pretend it's in the comic.
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker don't pretend it isn't. That's all I'm getting, it's either deception, blinkers or a mistake to suggest it isn't.
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker right now my instinct is to say deception, you are are storytellers after all…
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@richjohnston Superior Spider-Man 1 on sale January 9th. Oh and pick up Captain Marvel 9 too!
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker will do!
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker absolutely not. I was in praise of 700 because I thought it was smart.
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@richjohnston Thanks, but I stand by my point.
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker doesn't stop it from being wrong.
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker of course, I don't think it was a bad thing it was raised. I thought it was deliberate.
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@richjohnston It was Pete and MJ drama is at the heart of the book. But to jump to cries of rape is silly and diminishes the topic.
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
@richjohnston I know. I read it…it just fed the usual suspects. And you got Rape in your headline which helped you personally! And Israel!
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker but the implications of his actions in real world law are considered.
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@richjohnston When we want to. It's a soap opera Rich. And you know it.Verisimilitude is an option, not a necessity.
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker it's like saying murder has nothing to do with a Punisher comic. The issue is raised by the contents of the comic.
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@richjohnston That is nonsense considering the Punisher actually murders people.
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker then in your previous words, "call the cops". No one actually murders anyone.
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker certainly legislation in different locations varies on this. In the UK a sexual relationship between the two would be rape.
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@richjohnston This where the conversation gets nuts. Arbitrarily bringing In real world law? Really? In super hero comics? Don't stop there!
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker Dan Slott actively did this in She Hulk, including cases of superhero rape. I don't see why this should be different.
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@richjohnston Sorry we aren't making the comic you think we should.
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker straw man. I think if you do portray the pair in a sexual relationship as they are now, you have raised the topic of rape.
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@richjohnston Not a straw man. An actual man. Guess you'll have to read the story. Doc is a pretty bad guy for sure.
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
@richjohnston @stephenwacker how about having this conversation after the plot has happened, eh? SSM 1 isn't out yet. Pick it up in a year.
— Paul Fosten (@PFoz) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker I'm expecting a story of redemption. Rape is an issue which was raised by 700, but not followed through. Expected that of SSM
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@pfoz @richjohnston Ha…no chance. Rich knows a good thing when he has it. This will get several articles. Spideytroversy always works!
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker if he has sex with MJW without telling her who he is, it's an issue. If he doesn't, its also an issue. The redemption of Otto
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@richjohnston If that happens, I hope it IS an issue. We always need moresoap opera and drama.!
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker but then you can't expect people not to ask whether or not it would be rape in that circumstance
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker but yes, it's a serial medium with more to come. Anyone who dismisses spider-man as a rapist based on ASM 700 is wrong
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker asking the question if he will be a rapist is not wrong, and the question is raised by 700 and 15.1. You dismissed that.
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@richjohnston People can ask all sorts of questions. You can find readers who swear we're anti-Semitic too.
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
@richjohnston I dismissed that Spidey comics are a platform for a discussion about rape. We deal in dual identity every mon.
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker then sex has to be kept out if it, or the issue can be raised, especially in these circumstances. And has before.
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker I think you should own the issues you raise!
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker if you are not addressing this point then it's irresponsible. Dan seems to suggest he is addressing the point.
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@richjohnston Dan said read issue 2. I agree. More Pete and MJ in issue 2. You may not be happy though. So start your faux-outrage engines!
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker there wasn't outrage, faux or otherwise, in that article or these tweets
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@richjohnston But more importantly Rape and Spidey were close together. I worked on newspapers, Rich. I know the hamhanded trick.
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker if I was after an exploitative headline, there were many more that would have done the trick better.
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@richjohnston ! Other headlines like the sick kid you mean? Please stop with the Mother Teresa act. We all get that you're a sensitive hero!
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker that headline was "um…"
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@richjohnston @stephenwacker u guys playing comic world's Dawson's Creek…? I think better head to bed…Thanks 4 keepin me awake last 3hrs
— philip tan (@philipsytan) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker @richjohnston Hi Steve, I'm on record on here calling you my fave editor. Love all your books, but I think Rich is right here
— Alex Jamieson (@Alex_Jamieson) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker @richjohnston If Ock and MJ sleep together and she thinks she is Peter, you would be portraying a real world crime
— Alex Jamieson (@Alex_Jamieson) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker @richjohnston One that should be portrayed responsibly, even if it is "superhero comics".
— Alex Jamieson (@Alex_Jamieson) December 29, 2012
@alex_jamieson @richjohnston We actually celebrate real world crimes every month in our books. It's the outrage that's selective.
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
@alex_jamieson @richjohnston But you support vigilantism?
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
@alex_jamieson @stephenwacker not necessarily. Check New York State law…
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@alex_jamieson @richjohnston Fair enough. It hasn't been "portrayed" in my Spider-Man comic though.
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
@alex_jamieson @stephenwacker although if that had been changed by the amount of shapeshifters around, who knows
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker @richjohnston And you can't use that antisemitism example. That's their opinion. Ock/MJ would categorically be rape in UK law
— Alex Jamieson (@Alex_Jamieson) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker indeed, there been little commentary about murder yet. I'm sure that's to come…
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@alex_jamieson @richjohnston I have to tell my writers to now keep the laws of every country in mind when crafting super hero stories?
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker Dan Slott wrote a comic about superhero law. I don't think you need to tell him a thing!
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@richjohnston Rich, you're being facile. Im talking about this comic.
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker @richjohnston This is true. I know I'm preempting story in SSM and I usually trust you but your response to Rich alarmed me
— Alex Jamieson (@Alex_Jamieson) December 29, 2012
@alex_jamieson @richjohnston then you come wired a bit too tightly.
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker @richjohnston I accept vigilantism for the sake of genre, plus Marvel portray it as a crime. Rape is many magnitudes worse.
— Alex Jamieson (@Alex_Jamieson) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker @richjohnston No, just explaining why British people would refer to a potential sexual encounter between MJ/Ock in this way
— Alex Jamieson (@Alex_Jamieson) December 29, 2012
@alex_jamieson @richjohnston We Do not portray vigilantism asa crime. We portray it as heroic. See Spider-Man.
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker @alex_jamieson It gets portrayed as both.
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker @alex_jamieson Back and forth, depending on circumstances, but Spider-Man has often had police after him for it.
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@richjohnston @alex_jamieson And yet Spider-Man carries on endangering police. Where's the petitions?
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
@stephenwacker @alex_jamieson No petitions from me…
— Rich Johnston (@richjohnston) December 29, 2012
@richjohnston You don't, but you don't mind playing to that crowd in hopes of riling up. There's no one left you're fooling with this, Rich.
— Stephen Wacker (@StephenWacker) December 29, 2012
The tweets are still continuing… at some point, Steve Wacker will go to bed. Not yet though.
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