Page 5 of 10 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 99
  1. #41
    Zen Master of Cool Stephen B.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    1,183

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Bedard View Post
    I've worked both on staff and in a freelance capacity for DC Comics for about a decade. I know that they'd love to have a more diverse creator pool, but that's not what drives their decisions when they make assignments, nor should it. Gail doesn't get 3 books because she's female. She gets them because she tells great superhero stories.
    DC (or any other company, for that matter) shouldn't be attempting to hire a creator because she is a woman or black or gay, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be seeking out new and diverse creative voices. It'd be stupid to argue that a white creator can't successfully write a black character (Bendis on Cage), a straight writer a gay character (Simone on various), or a male writer a woman (Rucka on everything), but it'd also be silly to deny that various backgrounds and various viewpoints in race, gender, age, sexuality, etc. greatly contributes to the potential for enriching stories that appeal to a wider variety of readers. Also, I can't find anywhere in this thread where anyone accused Gail Simone of getting some sort of preferential treatment, or calling for similar actions to be taken with other creators.

  2. #42
    King of Cool Peter J Poole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Falkirk, Scotland, in a United Kingdom
    Posts
    19,577

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen B. View Post
    Also, I can't find anywhere in this thread where anyone accused Gail Simone of getting some sort of preferential treatment, or calling for similar actions to be taken with other creators.
    I'd take the comment as generic, not specific, even though Gail was name dropped.

    Cheers
    "You might think that... I couldn't possibly comment..."

  3. #43
    Moderator Mad_Man_Moon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    ON HOLIDAY, NOT RESPONDING
    Posts
    13,972

    Default

    I was just coming in here because I was curious about the LGBT and racial mix up of the staff ... but that was just on a superficial level (my interest).

    If you're wondering WHY creative companies should actively look to employ more female writers (etc), then I urge you to read a passage in Dan Harmon's recent episode-by-episode breakdown of Community on The Onion's AV Club website:
    He says:
    AVC: You’ve employed a lot of female writers, in both seasons. That’s not true of a lot of other TV comedies. Was that a conscious decision?

    DH:
    It was conscious on the part of [former NBC programming head] Angela Bromstad, before she left NBC. Angela said, “Get more women on your staff. Make it half women.” I remember going, “Are you fucking kidding me?” to myself. “Okay, I got a sitcom, and this is as far as you go,” because I’ve just been told that half of my staff needs to be a quota hire. From the mouths of bureaucrats come the seeds of great things. I dug extra hard. You find somebody like Hilary Winston. You find people later like [Emily] Cutler and [Karey] Dornetto.

    They’re harder to find. It’s definitely not because women ain’t funny, because I’m finding the opposite. It’s because there’s fewer of them. The statistical probability of picking up a shitty script, it’s compounded for women. There’s the same percentage of genius happening in both genders, but there’s less women writing scripts and out there looking for the job. So you dig a little extra-hard, and you end up with a staff that took a few extra meetings and a few extra shitty scripts to read. Now you have a staff that is just as good as the staff you would have had, but happens to be half women. And it seems like the greatest thing in the world, because the world is half women. And the male writers across the board, from top to bottom, in their most private moments drinking with me, when they’re fully licensed to be as misogynist, reactive, old-boy-network as they want, all they can say is, “This turned out to be a great thing.”

    The energy is different. It doesn’t keep anybody polite. We’re not doffing our caps or standing up when they enter the room. They do more dick jokes than anybody, because they’ve had to survive, they have to prove, coming in the door, that they’re not dainty. That’s not fair, but women writers, they acquire the muscle of going blue fast because they have to counter the stigma. I don’t have enough control groups to compare it to, but there’s just something nice about feeling like your writers’ room represents your ensemble a little more accurately, represents the way the world turns.

    Race is another thing entirely. It would be fantastic to have 18 percent black writers on your TV staff and stuff. But the fact is, black women have ovaries and white women have ovaries; black men have testicles and white men have testicles, so actually, race is far more an artificial construct than gender. There’s a literal, actual difference between men and women, and it’s in their blood, and it’s in their brains, and it’s in their fingertips, and it’s in our conversations. I think women are different, and I think having them in the room is crucial to a family comedy, ensemble comedy, television comedy, where half the eyeballs on your show are women. As it turns out, I think Megan’s the only female writer who’s staying this year, so now, even though Bromstad’s gone, now I’m carrying this legacy, going, “Eh, guys, we really need a half-female writing staff.” I would teach it. I think we have to stop thinking of it as a quota thing and think of it as a common-sense thing
    Put basically, there is a whole lot of thinking that you're missing if you don't have a diverse creative team (in general). This isn't to say that all men think alike, or that all male readers are your only concern, chief concern or whatever. It is just to say that if you are concerned with being the absolute best that you can be creatively, you have to create from every angle, in the best possible way.

    It would be hard to deny that Gail is not one of (if not the) best female writers in the industry.

    (although I would say that Immonen could take her in a write off)




    footnote: Community is a an incredibly intelligently written (from a comedy point of view) comedy show, and worth anyone's time.
    They are not beyond a fart joke, either.
    Last edited by Mad_Man_Moon; 06-12-2011 at 05:23 PM. Reason: removed winking smiley, as I'm sure that there are idiots who will take it out of context



    Review | Random | Smile | Pic
    .
    .
    .

    M_M_M IS CURRENTLY OUT OF THE FUCKING OFFICE

    KINDLY LEAVE A MESSAGE AFTER THE BEEP
    .
    .
    .

    THE BEEP IS CENSORING THE SWEAR M_M_M IS CALLING YOU FOR TRYING TO DISTURB HIS HOLIBOB

  4. #44

    Default

    What a great testimony posted above. Thank you for that. It makes my point. My argument for a diversity in comics isn't based on morality or guilt...it's just good business.

    If you want to sell comics to more people, and not just sell more comics to the same shrinking audience, then you've got to diversify your staff. The business is too insular. No one is questioning the orthodoxies that prevent the millions of people who are enjoying comic book characters in other mediums from actually picking up a comic book. There are plenty of talented people who may or may not be working in comics, but certainly could at least work at the level of product currently being produced, if not better.

  5. #45
    Bleeding Cool
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA
    Posts
    7,736

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Reginald Hudlin View Post
    What a great testimony posted above. Thank you for that. It makes my point. My argument for a diversity in comics isn't based on morality or guilt...it's just good business.

    If you want to sell comics to more people, and not just sell more comics to the same shrinking audience, then you've got to diversify your staff. The business is too insular. No one is questioning the orthodoxies that prevent the millions of people who are enjoying comic book characters in other mediums from actually picking up a comic book. There are plenty of talented people who may or may not be working in comics, but certainly could at least work at the level of product currently being produced, if not better.
    But that testimony argues only for gender diversity and, ostensibly, against the need to really push for ethnic diversity. Harmon specifically says that a white woman and black woman or black man and white man are wired similarly enough that the diversity won't have as much of a business impact. I'd hazard a guess that the diversity of the characters in the product probably could have more of a business impact than the creators.

    Edit: I'm for bringing as many different, talented voices into the process as possible. But Harmon's argument seems to be opposed to yours, yet you're co-opting it, which is quizzical. I really like to see diversity for its own sake and for it possibly lending to the chances of getting something fresh and different that we might not have otherwise gotten. Not seeing where it makes a quantifiable difference that statistics bear out.
    Last edited by khuxford; 06-12-2011 at 06:27 PM.

  6. #46
    Captain Cool Jason A. Quest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Purgatory MI
    Posts
    4,135

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by khuxford View Post
    But that testimony argues only for gender diversity and, ostensibly, against the need to really push for ethnic diversity. Harmon specifically says that a white woman and black woman or black man and white man are wired similarly enough that the diversity won't have as much of a business impact.
    But in doing so he's just playing only his strongest suit: XX vs XY chromosomes. There are also differences between black men and white men (based almost entirely on their different experiences living in our society). There are differences between gay black men and straight black men (based on a mix of experience and almost certainly some brain wiring). And so on. Age. Religion. Disability. Marital status. Etc. That's right: all of those things that aren't significant enough on the individual level to be fair and legal reasons to select person A over person B, are still significant enough on larger scales that they do make a difference in creative work, and should be sought out and encouraged on that scale. I don't think a quota like Bromstad demanded is the right answer. But a more general "try to get some women in here; this is a stale sausage fest" plea is: good for creativity, good for business, and good for society. And as a white guy, with that on the line, I'm willing to take the chance that it just might result in me not getting invited.
    Last edited by Jason A. Quest; 06-12-2011 at 06:52 PM.
    Jason A. Quest, Bt.
    JAQrabbit Tales – free bio-porno-graphic novel
    Everybody's Doin' It! – manly gay porn
    Captain MiracleFetus Christ – free
    The Nude 52! – nekkid superheroes

  7. #47

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by khuxford View Post
    But that testimony argues only for gender diversity and, ostensibly, against the need to really push for ethnic diversity.
    And I think he's wrong, on that point, although I agree with him completely in regards to gender diversity, which is what this topic is primarily about. His point does confirm what I talked about earlier, how it's not about finding some quota of X writers/artist to give them jobs just because they're X, it's about making the effort to widen the search for new talent from all walks of life.

    Now, I don't know why Harmon is so adamant about how gender differences are real, but ethnic differences are irrelevant, but especially if you're talking about writers, then that person's life experiences are going to inform how the view things, and that will come out in their writing. And, in that case, the color of someone's skin can often make a huge difference in how they approach a certain topic, and I think that more viewpoints can be beneficial.

  8. #48

    Default

    Or, in other words: What Jason A Quest just said.

  9. #49
    Bleeding Cool
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Chesapeake, VA
    Posts
    7,736

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason A. Quest View Post
    But in doing so he's just playing only his strongest suit: XX vs XY chromosomes. There are also differences between black men and white men (based almost entirely on their different experiences living in our society). There are differences between gay black men and straight black men (based on a mix of experience and almost certainly some brain wiring). And so on. Age. Religion. Disability. Marital status. Etc. That's right: all of those things that aren't significant enough on the individual level to be fair and legal reasons to select person A over person B, are still significant enough on larger scales that they do make a difference, and should be sought out and encouraged on that scale. I don't think a quota like Harmon demanded is really the right answer. But a more general "try to get some women in here; this is a stale sausage fest" plea is good for creativity, good for business, and good for society. And as a white guy, I'm willing to take the chance that it just might result in me not getting invited.
    Differences in life experiences won't break down completely based on pigment, though. Most of what gets considered an "ethnic" experience is socio-economic, which can often be shared across pigment lines.

    Those differences are small enough that easier to make up for via research and the talent to apply it. The lack of those differences generally don't lead to the loss of an audience, because there are bigger similarities to speak to. The presence of those differences don't always result in a noticeable difference on the business side, either. Harmon's argument, again, is actually counter to Hudlin's, not supportive of it, so it seems odd that he'd hold it up as proof.

  10. #50

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by khuxford View Post
    Differences in life experiences won't break down completely based on pigment, though.
    You could say the same thing (& many do) about gender.

    Quote Originally Posted by khuxford View Post
    Those differences are small enough that easier to make up for via research and the talent to apply it. The lack of those differences generally don't lead to the loss of an audience, because there are bigger similarities to speak to. The presence of those differences don't always result in a noticeable difference on the business side, either.
    Nobody is saying that it's an instant fix. "Want more female/non-White readers? Then hire more female/non-White writers!" We're simply saying that for the long-term growth of the industry, they're going to need to broaden the audience. And one way of doing that is by broadening the creators.

    Quote Originally Posted by khuxford View Post
    Harmon's argument, again, is actually counter to Hudlin's, not supportive of it, so it seems odd that he'd hold it up as proof.
    Because Harmon's argument is close enough to Hudlin's (& mine, and Jason, and others) argument that we can say okay, he's half-right, when it comes to gender, and we think the same tactics he applied to getting more women writers should be used towards getting more non-White writers. Not by just hiring any writer who comes in the door who happens to be X, but by giving more writers who happen to be X a chance, until you find the ones who are good enough.

Page 5 of 10 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •