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Thread: Understanding Ethnocrunching - How Racism Works In The Comic Industry

  1. #891
    Consultant of Cool Geoff Thorne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAMURAI36 View Post



    1) If Blackest Night is a rip-off of Marvel Zombies, simply because of the Zombies, then Marvel Zombies is a rip-off of any and every aspect of the Zombie genre of horror.
    No, it was a set of guys seeing the success (like it or not MZ was a success) and jumping on the bandwagon.

    2) The first Marvel Zombies book came out in 2005. The first work of Johns of Blackest Night began in 2004.
    Blackest Night was 2009. Marvel Zombies 2005. By your logic you could say BLACKEST NIGHT began with the introduction of Mogo or Parallax.

    McDuffie was hired as a staff writer for the animated series Justice League and was promoted to story editor and producer as the series became Justice League Unlimited. During the entire run of the animated series, McDuffie wrote, produced, or story-edited 69 out of the 91 episodes.

    Now in God's name, please tell me how what I said was somehow inaccurate.
    please don'tt use that dodge. the statement was that McDuffie "didn't write every episode." yes, technically accurate if you remove it from the context of the conversation. You used it to imply that somehow that diminished his importance to the series. If you knew what a Story Editor does on an animated series, you'd have known to be still.

    Have you even seen Smallville?

    During Johns' run on Smallville, Johns introduced numerous characters (and TEAMS) that were no originally there.
    Johns wrote three episodes of SMALLVILLE in its later seasons and was never in a supervisory position on the show. He had no "run" on the show.

    On the JLA book, Johns is attempting to tell the story from 5 years ago, and bring the reader up to now. Since you talk about less screen time, Johns has had less time in terms of issues, to do what McDuffie did in 70 episodes.
    LOL. That's not how EITHER side of the equation works. Comics can compress or expand the time being depicted in a story in a way the TV format doesn't allow. Ask Alan Moore. It's a FAR more flexible means of delivering a story and thus less taxing. Especially when you're the boss and can unilaterally make decisions for your story without worrying about their impact on those of others (McDuffie, Perez, Liefeld?).

    It's not a fair comparison...
    I know. you shouldn't have made it.

    Wow, I'll have to remember that, the next time I go to a Con and Johns is there, and he gets standing ovations at the DC panels, or a line of people out the door to get an autograph, and to tell him how much his work means to them.
    Not the same as a trend. neither Dwayne, nor Geoff Johns was a "trendsetter."

    You don't have to like Johns or his work, but to deny him the credit he deserves is beyond biased. It's also unprofessional of you, as a fellow writer.
    I haven't denied him his credit. I like a good deal of his work. He's a solid, middle-of-the-road-writer. He has never taken an artistic risk. He has never done anything remotely innovative. this isn't an opinion, it's a fact.

    I'm not going to tell you what McDuffie's blemishes are, because 1) I'm not interested in playing that kind of game with you, and 2) I realize that what I liked and disliked about his work is purely subjective
    Or, "because he has no blemishes on his artistic record." That would be the truth. And, for the record, I never said Johns did either. he's just not on the same level as McDuffie as a writer. He's not on the same level as Moore or Gaiman or Waid either. But i doubt anyone would be foolish enough to assert he was.
    Last edited by Geoff Thorne; 09-22-2012 at 07:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Thorne View Post
    No, it was a set of guys seeing the success (like it or not MZ was a success) and jumping on the bandwagon.
    MZ was nowhere NEAR the success of BN. It is on record for selling more copies of a crossover than any event from any company that preceded it. Deal with it.

    Blackest Night was 2009. Marvel Zombies 2005. By your logic you could say BLACKEST NIGHT began with the introduction of Mogo or Parallax.
    Nope, it began with GL: Rebirth. That's when he first mentioned the Prophecy of the BLACKEST NIGHT. He'd also mentioned during interviews during that time, that Rebirth was the first part of a trilogy.

    Everything about Johns' idea for BN came before MZ.

    please don'tt use that dodge. the statement was that McDuffie "didn't write every episode." yes, technically accurate if you remove it from the context of the conversation. You used it to imply that somehow that diminished his importance to the series. If you knew what a Story Editor does on an animated series, you'd have known to be still.
    Thank you, Straw Man, for telling ME how I intended MY argument. However, you are wrong as usual. I merely stated to point out that he wasn't responsible for ALL of JLU.


    Johns wrote three episodes of SMALLVILLE and was never in a supervisory position on the show in its latter seasons. He had no "run" on the show.
    So? He still had a significant impact on the show in the latter seasons. Besides, if that's the game you wanna play, then McDuffie was only the story editor for the last 2 seasons of the show.

    LOL. That's not how EITHER side of the equation works. Comics can compress or expand the time being depicted in a story in a way the TV format doesn't allow. Ask Alan Moore. It's a FAR more flexible means of delivering a story and thus less taxing. Especially when you're the boss and can unilaterally make decisions for your story without worrying about their impact on those of others (McDuffie, Perez, Liefeld).
    Dude, you really are retarded, aren't you? Simply put, McDuffie worked on the show for 5 years. Johns has only worked on the book for 1. What is so hard to understand about this?


    I know. you shouldn't have made it.
    I'm talking about your comparison, dumb-ass. I didn't make the comparison between the JL cartoon, and the JL book, you did.

    Not the same as a trend. neither Dwayne, nor Geoff Johns was a "trendsetter."
    Okay, whatever.

    I haven't denied him his credit. I like a good deal of his work. He's a solid, middle-of-the-road-writer. He has never taken an artistic risk. He has never done anything remotely innovative. this isn't an opinion, it's a fact.
    See my previous post, that I'd made edits to. Don’t worry, I’ll do it for you:
    1) If Blackest Night is a rip-off of Marvel Zombies, simply because of the Zombies, then Marvel Zombies is a rip-off of any and every aspect of the Zombie genre of horror.

    2)I didn't know Jade and Osiris were Silver Age characters.

    3) The concept of closing the revolving door on death? Creating 8 additional Corps? Altering the nature of the rings (emotional spectrum)? None of this was a creative risk, and one that not only has paid off, but was one of the few ideas that survived an entire relaunch?

    4) The first Marvel Zombies book came out in 2005. The first work of Johns of Blackest Night began in 2004.

    Please, in all your splendid intelligentsia, explain how this can be the case.

    Or, "because he has no blemishes on his artistic record." That would be the truth. And, for the record, I never said Johns did either. he's just not on the same level as McDuffie as a writer.
    What is an example of this flawless work that McDuffie has written for comics?

    He's not on the same level as Moore or Gaiman or Waid either. But i doubt anyone would be foolish enough to assert he was.
    1) I'm not interested in comparing creators, the way you seem to be. Some are good in some aspects, but bad in others. None of the people you've named are without their "creative blemishes", either.

    2) As good as McDuffie's JLU was, he didn't do anything out of the ordinary for the same set of characters that Johns is working on. You yourself said neither one of them set any trends. So what's the difference?

  3. #893
    Consultant of Cool Geoff Thorne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAMURAI36 View Post
    You yourself said neither one of them set any trends. So what's the difference?
    no. you're right. i see your points. there's no difference at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Thorne View Post
    no. you're right. i see your points. there's no difference at all.
    Great, thanx for the concession.

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    Exceedingly Cool G. Boney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAMURAI36 View Post
    We actually don't know precisely what MULTIVERSITY is or will be, quite yet. 52 was a "mini"-series as well, and look how much that changed the DCU during that time.
    It's a mini-series, according to the writer Grant Morrison. And what changed after 52 that is germane to the subject at hand?

    Again, more presumption. And just because someone is a supporting character, doesn't mean that their importance is somehow diminished. Again, she was a Queen. How is this somehow less significant?
    You say it's a presumption, I say it's my opinion. Based on the fact that she has never been more than a WW supporting character...and currently possibly doesn't even exist in the rebooted universe. Azzarello's take on WW has had little focus on Themyscira.

    She was a queen...okay. So was Storm but you obviously very much dislike that character. I don't have any feelings toward Philipus, one way or the other. I only brought her up because of my question to you about if you view power as the most important thing in a character.

    As for the "importance" of a supporting character: Bottom line, the focus of the comics are the headlining heroes. The supporting characters aren't going to outshine them.

    Perhaps you have not really been reading DC comics as of late. Black Shazam was the character that decided to turn Judas of Biblical fame into the Phantom Stranger, and some other unnamed character into the Question. The Council of Eternity (of which he was at the center, and now the only one left) was solely responsible for setting the events of Trinity War into motion.

    Saying that Black Shazam is not important simply because he's not Captain Marvel, is like saying the Guardians of Oa are not important, because they are not Hal Jordan.

    I doubt you would make such a claim about them, so I'm rather surprised that you would take such a defeatist stance about this particular character.
    Heh, it's kinda funny you say that, because I actually was going to mention them in my previous post but didn't. The Green Lantern comic typically does not focus on the Guardians, but the heroics of the main character (usually Hal). Same for Shazam.

    Also to add, that the entire Council of Eternity that Black Shazam sat on, was comprised of 7 people, and nearly all of them were people of color. 4 men, 3 women, and the only white person was a woman. A total departure from the original concept of SHAZAM, who was an old white man, who ruled by himself. And again, we have Geoff Johns to thank for this.
    I think this is the crux of our difference on the issue: these ethnic or female supporting/background characters are "enough" for you. You said earlier that you are pretty satisfied with the way things are as far as black/ethnic characters in the comics, though not with the behind the scenes industry issues.

    I don't share your enthusiasm about these supporting characters. That doesn't mean I'm mad they exist, or that I'm being "defeatist".

    So what's the alternative, then? How does Lucius Fox become more significant than he already is? Because Mr. Thorne was content to compare the genius CFO of a billion dollar company to a butler, who does nothing more than serve tea, and drive his "master" around.

    I've never seen Fox doing any of that.
    Well, I can't speak for Geoffrey Thorne and I haven't mentioned Lucius Fox at all. He is what he is: a Batman supporting character, and that's all he will ever be. I think when most people are talking about the problems with how black/non-white characters are presented in marvel & dc comics, they are mainly talking about the black/ethnic superheroes (or lack thereof), since that's what the books are about...not the guys standing in the background.

    Yes, but I get the impression that you'd merely vilify them and their views on the character, same as you've done for me and Black Shazam.
    Heh, seriously? "Vilifying?" I hope that was sarcasm. If you are taking this discussion as a personal attack all I can say is...don't. We are talking about comic characters, that's all. I disagree with you that Black Shazam is a big deal and will be a big part of the dcu, that's all. If I turn out to be wrong...okay.

    Yes, but the Ultimate version is now the official version; they just needed a way to transition him over to the regular Marvel Universe.

    Just curious: have you heard the statement "Paint the White House Black"?
    I wasn't the one who brought up Black Nick Fury. As I said in my previous post, he fits into the "ethnic hand-me-down" powers/identitiy thing too.

    I continue to ask for examples of how DC has done it "just more often", and people have failed to provide any.

    Naming a few is not naming more.
    Okay first: the "few" I listed in my previous post, from both marvel and dc was not to show who has done it more but simply giving examples of the original characters taking their names back, from both companies.

    Second: me saying that dc does the "ethnic hand-me-down" thing more often isn't an attack, it's just the way it is. Like I said before I find that particular approach tired, no matter which of the big two is doing it. However, since you need a list:

    Some that come to mind for marvel: Iron Man, Ult. Spider-Man, Ult. Fury, 3D-Man, Captain Marvel, Deathlok, Bucky, Patriot, Goliath...

    Some that come to mind for dc: Mr. Terrific, Crimson Avenger, JJ Thunder, Green Lantern, Firestorm, The Atom, The Question, Dr, Midnight, Wildcat, Judomaster, The Guardian, Tatooed Man, The Ray, The Tarantula, Invisible Kid, Batgirl, Azrael, Dr Light...

    Batgirl was always original Barbara. Same as Tony. The difference is in what they've done during their times under these mantles.
    C'mon, dude. I know that Tony and Barbara were the originals. In fact that was what I was obviously saying, since we are discussing "ethnic hand-me-downs". They had the identities, had ethnic replacements, they reclaimed the identities.

    Granted, I don't read Marvel, but what outstanding things has Rhodes done during his time as Iron Man? Or even as War Machine (which is still an Iron Man protege)?

    Because we can all name things that make Cass Cain a far more interesting Batgirl than Barbara.
    Exactly, yet they still went back to Barbara. Which was my point.

    What's the "hand-me-down" issue that you have with Cyborg? They'd been continually trying to graduate the character, even before the New52. And he finally made it. He became a member of the JL in both the comics and the cartoon.
    Huh?? There is no "hand-me-down" issue with Cyborg. Like I said in my previous post, IMO they should use more of their original black (latin/asian/etc.) characters...Cyborg being an example of one that they are using...instead of the "hand-me-down" syndrome where the identity is bound to revert back to the previous "owner".

    That's not correct. Terry Sloan, the original Mr T. was a member of the Golden Age JSA and All-Star Squadron.
    The All-Star Squadron was created in the 80's. The character had few appearances from his creation in the 40's until being made a member of that retconned team. My point is the same as it was before: Mr. Terrific was not a big name character, so in the case of the Mike Holt Mr. Terrific it's not surprising that few have a problem with him.

    The problem is, people have, and are complaining about Blue Beetle. People still want Ted Kord to return, and they don't think that Jaime Reyes is a fitful replacement for him.
    Yeah some people are always going to complain. I think the yay-sayers outweigh the nay-sayers for that particular character. Also it seems that tptb like him too (which is what matters when you get down to it)...he's on his 2nd on-going comic, and has appeared in at least 2 cartoon series.

    It's "crap"..... Why, exactly? If Johns had written him as the Emir of Yemen who'd inherited a GL ring, would that have been less crap for you?

    Do you know alot of Arabs? I do. And what Baz went thru in this story, is something not dissimilar to what many of them have gone thru, and many of them look exactly like him. Again, that's where the story is. Johns is using the superhero genre to tell the tale of his people.

    Same as McDuffie did. How is this somehow different?

    Simon Baz may be Arab, but he looks Black. The same as people saying Sunspot is black, although he's "Brazilian". Clearly, people thought (and still do think) that he's a Black American Muslim, based on his depiction. Johns could have very easily instructed his artist to draw him as a lighter skinned Arab, the same as they are doing for Sunspot these days, but he didn't.

    This says to me that he (Johns) knows that not all Arabs look like himself. You don't get to live in Detroit, and not be racially aware. I would say to ask McDuffie, but he's not here now to answer.
    I already said why I think it's crap: the whole car thief/suspected terrorist thing. The gun and a mask thing.

    I'm not quite sure what your "he looks black" speech was about, or what it has to do with Sunspot. I haven't defended what they have done to Sunspot, nor do I have an issue with the way they colored Baz.

    I do not agree with you that Johns is suddenly trying to "tell the tale of his people". Like I said in my previous post, in all these years I've never heard he was half arab until now. I feel it is only being mentioned now because there has been "controversy" with this new character.
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    Zen Master of Cool WinterCeltic's Avatar
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    The more I see Dwayne McDuffie mentioned in here, the more I realize just how much he's sorely missed. I know it's trite and cliched, but there was so much more he would have provided the industry.
    Last edited by WinterCeltic; 09-23-2012 at 11:05 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by G. Boney View Post
    It's a mini-series, according to the writer Grant Morrison. And what changed after 52 that is germane to the subject at hand?
    The subject at hand, being significant and/or longlasting changes to characters and situations in the DCU? Many changes that lasted for years, some even post-Flashpoint?

    --The introduction of the Black Marvel Family (carried over to the New 52)

    --The introduction of Renee as the Question

    --The introduction of Batwoman (carried over to the New 52)

    --The introduction of the Religion of Crime (carried over to the New 52)

    --The Death of Ralph Dibny

    --The changes to Animal Man (carried over to the New 52)

    And a few others.

    You say it's a presumption, I say it's my opinion. Based on the fact that she has never been more than a WW supporting character...and currently possibly doesn't even exist in the rebooted universe. Azzarello's take on WW has had little focus on Themyscira.
    But when it did, she was there.

    She was a queen...okay. So was Storm but you obviously very much dislike that character. I don't have any feelings toward Philipus, one way or the other. I only brought her up because of my question to you about if you view power as the most important thing in a character.
    I dislike Storm, for the very reason that is my issue with the portrayal of Marvel's characters, which transcends her being queen.

    Philipus, TMK, was never portrayed in any aspect of a negative light. She was simply underused. A crime to be sure, but more of a misdemeanor, than the Class-A felony of the depiction of a blue-eyed, blonde haired black woman, who is sometimes African, sometimes not, having been passed around from one Alpha-Male white character to another, before being pawned off on the Black King. Which, BTW, no self-respecting king in Africa would have taken her as his wife, outside of her powerset. She was used goods in the worst way.

    As for the "importance" of a supporting character: Bottom line, the focus of the comics are the headlining heroes. The supporting characters aren't going to outshine them.
    That's true enough, but that doesn't negate their significance to the headlining character of the book, and to the story overall.

    Further, a supporting character doesn't have to be seen constantly, for their effects on the book to be seen. Lucius Fox had a VERY significant role in the latest Batman trilogy of movies. In fact, he was seen almost as often as Bruce Wayne himself was.

    That was part of the fun and charm of seeing the character; the person who creates the technology is just as interesting as the person who uses it.

    Heh, it's kinda funny you say that, because I actually was going to mention them in my previous post but didn't. The Green Lantern comic typically does not focus on the Guardians, but the heroics of the main character (usually Hal). Same for Shazam.
    You haven't been reading GL for the last year and a half, have you? Interestingly enough, the same person that is writing GL, is the same one that's writing Shazam. A writer who is notorious for bringing B and C list characters to the forefront. The same writer that made a nobody like Black Hand, into a top ranking villain in the DCU.

    Also, I've been toying around with mentioning this one point as well.... It's funny how an ever-powerful character that is rarely (if ever) seen in the on-going narrative is somehow dismissed by the lack of frequency of their appearance...

    People worship such a "character" each and every day.

    I think this is the crux of our difference on the issue: these ethnic or female supporting/background characters are "enough" for you. You said earlier that you are pretty satisfied with the way things are as far as black/ethnic characters in the comics, though not with the behind the scenes industry issues.
    That's not entirely accurate. First, not everybody is a "supporting/background" character. Further, what I am more or less pleased with (or, as pleased as one is likely to get, with a company that is not owned and operated by "us") is the portrayal of those characters. It's not merely that they are there, lurking somewhere in the background. Because, whether you and Mr. Thorne can acknowledge and admit it or not, some of the most powerful (re: in terms of sheer power, intelligence, position, etc) characters in the DCU are persons of color, and/or women.

    For the most part, the ethnic and women characters at DC are competent (re: able to handle their own, alongside the "Iconic" white male characters), powerful (re: powers rivaling and even sometimes trumping the "Iconic" characters), intelligent (re: genius level, some more than most to of the "Iconic" characters), resourceful (re: wealthy, and/or in significant positions and roles) people.

    You cannot entirely say that about the MU.

    I don't share your enthusiasm about these supporting characters. That doesn't mean I'm mad they exist, or that I'm being "defeatist".
    I believe you're twisting these characters around to somehow be a bad thing, yes.

    Well, I can't speak for Geoffrey Thorne and I haven't mentioned Lucius Fox at all. He is what he is: a Batman supporting character, and that's all he will ever be. I think when most people are talking about the problems with how black/non-white characters are presented in marvel & dc comics, they are mainly talking about the black/ethnic superheroes (or lack thereof), since that's what the books are about...not the guys standing in the background.
    Saying "that's all he is", is demeriting the value and position of the character. All Alfred is, is a butler. All Fox is, is just the CFO of one of the top 5 companies (dare I say top 2) in the DCU. And happens to have genius level intellect.

    I don't know about you, but in the real world, but that description is something that most black men would be quite proud to have attached to their name.

    Heh, seriously? "Vilifying?" I hope that was sarcasm. If you are taking this discussion as a personal attack all I can say is...don't. We are talking about comic characters, that's all. I disagree with you that Black Shazam is a big deal and will be a big part of the dcu, that's all. If I turn out to be wrong...okay.
    I didn't say you were vilifying me, I said you were vilifying the characters.

    I'm not sure what there is to disagree with, regarding Black Shazam. He alone has changed the landscape of the New 52DCU in the mere few times that he's been introduced. How is that NOT a big part of the DCU?

    The same question I posed to Mr. Thorne, now goes to you: How much of DC comics do you read? Because just like him, much of your "opinions" run incongruent to what's been, and actually is happening in the stories.

    If you're not a DC fan, that's fine. If you prefer Marvel more, that's fine too. But most of your statements about DC have not only been inaccurate, but demonstrate a bias.

    I'm biased against Marvel, but I can't think of anything I've said that has been inaccurate, with regards to my grievances with them. Storm has blue eyes and blonde hair, yes? That's been my major grievance with her, as I've stated over and over.

    Why does Storm, have these features, when nobody else in Africa does (in the story)? TMK, she's not bi-racial. Is it somehow connected to her powers? If so, I'd love to hear an explanation as to what the connection is.

    I wasn't the one who brought up Black Nick Fury. As I said in my previous post, he fits into the "ethnic hand-me-down" powers/identitiy thing too.
    For the record, I like Samuel L. Fury. But I think it took Samuel L. Jackson for me to like him. I'm never gonna read a book with him in it (maybe if he has a solo book, but good luck getting that from Marvel), but I will watch every movie with him (re: the character, as portrayed by this particular actor) in it.

    Okay first: the "few" I listed in my previous post, from both marvel and dc was not to show who has done it more but simply giving examples of the original characters taking their names back, from both companies.
    Yes, I understand. However, wasn't your position similar to Mr. Thorne's, in that DC does it more? Or have I confused your position with his in this one regard?

    Second: me saying that dc does the "ethnic hand-me-down" thing more often isn't an attack, it's just the way it is. Like I said before I find that particular approach tired, no matter which of the big two is doing it. However, since you need a list:
    Okay, so you did say it. I can't recall using the word "attack". More like demerit and vilify; words that I have used. But I'm still saying it's not "just the way it is", it's just the way you perceive it to be. Meaning, you seem to be making more out of it than it needs to be.

    Some that come to mind for marvel: Iron Man, Ult. Spider-Man, Ult. Fury, 3D-Man, Captain Marvel, Deathlok, Bucky, Patriot, Goliath...

    Some that come to mind for dc: Mr. Terrific, Crimson Avenger, JJ Thunder, Green Lantern, Firestorm, The Atom, The Question, Dr, Midnight, Wildcat, Judomaster, The Guardian, Tatooed Man, The Ray, The Tarantula, Invisible Kid, Batgirl, Azrael, Dr Light...
    Granted, I don't know enough about Marvel to argue this point. However, as I read this list, this just says a few things to me:

    1) This points out to me, that DC has the heroic legacy aspect going on with their characters. Meaning, people of various backgrounds are inclined to step into the roles of a heroic name in DC, more than they are at Marvel. Whereas Marvel will usually have recurring versions of the same character (Wolverine, X-23, Dakken, Sabretooth, Wildchild, etc).

    2) Most of the characters you named from DC, are significantly more powerful or otherwise capable than their white and/or male predecessors. Michael Holt as Mr. Terrific infinitely surpasses Terry Sloan in terms of physical ability, intellectual prowess, and wealth/resources. Sloan never led the JSA, whereas Holt has. The same thing for the new Judomaster, Firestorm, Azrael, Dr. Light, Blue Beetle, Tattooed Man, Crimson Avenger, JJ Thunder, etc.

    3) The fact that you can name more characters from DC in these "hand-me-down" roles, says to me that DC continues to simply have more ethnic and female characters overall. And all of these characters are in fact appearing in more than just supportive roles.


    Exactly, yet they still went back to Barbara. Which was my point.
    Yes, but it doesn't negate mine though. They also relinquished the role from Stephanie too. If there were never a Cass Cain, but only Babs and Steph, would we be having this discussion?

    As Mr Thorne tried to oversimplify earlier, the attempt (though not necessarily with Blackest Night) was to return Silver Age characters to prominence. Clearly, that was going to happen regardless of which Batgirl was currently in the role.

    Same as with replacing Kyle with Hal again, or Wally with Barry. All these characters are "hand-me-down's" as well, just not of the ethnic variety.

    Your gripe with DC in this regard shouldn't be an issue of race, but an issue of how important the Silver Age is. Which continues to be the argument amongst most DC fans anyway.

    However, that's not Marvel's issue. It's a popularity issue with them. Who's gonna bring in the maximum dollar. Clearly Samuel L. Fury will put more butts in seats at the theater at this point, so they are sticking with him. However, it's doubtful if Rhodes/WarMachine will do the same thing, no matter how many credible characters they switch for the role. Thus, Tony (played by Downey) will be the face of the franchise.


    Overall, I just think the "ethnic-hand-me-down" argument seems kinda trite. People are complaining that John Stewart is a "hand-me-down"? Really? I just think some folks can't be pleased. If there were no black presence in this intergalactic space Corps at all, I think some of the same black people who are decrying this "hand-me-down", would be complaining that there was none at all.

    Huh?? There is no "hand-me-down" issue with Cyborg. Like I said in my previous post, IMO they should use more of their original black (latin/asian/etc.) characters...Cyborg being an example of one that they are using...instead of the "hand-me-down" syndrome where the identity is bound to revert back to the previous "owner".
    Forgive me: I thought you were the one that labeled him as a token. I think that was Mr. Thorne again.

    The All-Star Squadron was created in the 80's. The character had few appearances from his creation in the 40's until being made a member of that retconned team. My point is the same as it was before: Mr. Terrific was not a big name character, so in the case of the Mike Holt Mr. Terrific it's not surprising that few have a problem with him.
    But most of these earlier characters are not memorable in any real, significant way either. Do you even remember the original Tattooed Man? Or the original Judo Master? And I'm not talking about digging thru the back issue bins. How significant were many of the originals you named in the past 10 to 15 years? Some were, yes, like Ronnie Firestorm, and Ted Kord. But all of them? Not even close.

    Yeah some people are always going to complain. I think the yay-sayers outweigh the nay-sayers for that particular character. Also it seems that tptb like him too (which is what matters when you get down to it)...he's on his 2nd on-going comic, and has appeared in at least 2 cartoon series.
    Which is my point. I asked you before about "Paint the white House Black". You didn't respond to that. Characters like Blue Beetle and Mr. Terrific are examples of that.

    I already said why I think it's crap: the whole car thief/suspected terrorist thing. The gun and a mask thing.
    And why is that "Crap", exactly? When we first saw Jason Todd, he was trying to strip down the Bat-Mobile. So in your mind, there can be no criminal-turned-hero story?

    Because here's where I mention the double standard:

    All the McDuffie fans don't seem to have an issue with this:

    Blood Syndicate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    But cry foul when Johns does it.

    That's why I mentioned that John's motivations were similar to McDuffie's, in regards to alot of the newer characters he creates. (A point that got superimposed by Mr. Thorne's pointless need to prove how better McDuffie is over Johns).

    Both Johns and McDuffie came from the same place. Their heritage, as well as their environment serves as a huge motivator for their stories and characters.

    Baz is from Dearborn, MI, which has a significant Arab population. FYI, one of the terrorists associated with 911 had lived in Detroit. It's been a hotspot for Homeland Security ever since.

    You oversimplify the story, as it's been presented thus far. Again, no one knows why he has a gun. The gun hasn't been seen in the actual story. It's just on the cover of the book. That's why I said earlier, that what you call "opinions", I call assumptions. You assume that it's "crap", when you don't know why.

    How many "wrong place, wrong time" stories are out there?

    And what's wrong with the mask? I could see if Johns wrapped at turban around his head and face. But I think you would have a problem with that too.

    I'm not quite sure what your "he looks black" speech was about, or what it has to do with Sunspot. I haven't defended what they have done to Sunspot, nor do I have an issue with the way they colored Baz.
    I believe you mentioned him not being black previously.

    I do not agree with you that Johns is suddenly trying to "tell the tale of his people". Like I said in my previous post, in all these years I've never heard he was half arab until now. I feel it is only being mentioned now because there has been "controversy" with this new character.
    I've known he was half arab since Blackest Night. Just like I knew he was married to a black woman.

    But even if I didn't, so what? How is that somehow being construed as a bad thing? Besides, this isn't the only Arabic character that Johns created. It just seems to be the only high profile one.

  8. #898
    King of Cool Peter J Poole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAMURAI36 View Post
    A crime to be sure, but more of a misdemeanor, than the Class-A felony of the depiction of a blue-eyed, blonde haired black woman, who is sometimes African, sometimes not, having been passed around from one Alpha-Male white character to another, before being pawned off on the Black King. Which, BTW, no self-respecting king in Africa would have taken her as his wife, outside of her powerset.

    She was used goods in the worst way.Why does Storm, have these features, when nobody else in Africa does (in the story)? TMK, she's not bi-racial. Is it somehow connected to her powers? If so, I'd love to hear an explanation as to what the connection is.
    And crap like this is exactly why I have you filed under 'crazy as a loon', right next to Dusty and a couple of others...

    Never mind that you manage to take a serious discussion about racism and manage to subvert it into your incesant tirade of "DC roolz and Marvel droolz" - something I'd actually class as grotesque, rather than just typically pathetic.

    Never mind that you try to steer a conversation into comparing Marvel and DC characters 'apart from the Black Panther' - ignore the nuke, we can match them bullet for bullet with muskets...

    You come out with drivel as deranged as 'Storm is blonde'...

    Yes, and so is Lorna Dane.

    Moreover:

    Storm (Marvel Comics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "In Uncanny X-Men #102 (December 1976), Claremont established Storm's backstory. Ororo's mother, N'Dare, is the princess of a tribe in Kenya and descended from of a long line of African witch-priestesses with white hair, blue eyes, and a natural gift for sorcery. N'Dare falls in love with and marries American photojournalist David Munroe. They move to Harlem in uptown New York City, where Ororo is born. They move to Egypt and lived there until they die during the Suez Crisis in a botched aircraft attack, leaving six-year-old Ororo as an orphan."

    Ororo's relationship with T'Challa goes back to when they met as teenagers and were romantically attracted to each other:

    Storm - X-Men Wiki - Wolverine, Marvel Comics, Origins

    "During her travels, Ororo naively accepted a ride from a complete stranger and was almost raped by him. Forced to defend herself, Ororo killed the man. From that moment, she swore never to take another human life. Ororo wandered for thousands of miles, almost dying during her trek across the Sahara Desert. Her mutant ability to psionically control the weather emerged soon after, and she was able to use them to rescue T'Challa, a prince of the African nation of Wakanda, from his would-be kidnappers. The pair spent much time together, however T'Challa's duties as a prince prevented them from further exploring their burgeoning mutual attraction. Finally, Ororo reached her ancestors' homeland on the Serengeti Plain in Kenya. She was taken in by an elderly tribal woman named Ainet who taught her to be responsible with her powers. Ororo soon came to be the object of worship of the local tribes who believed her to be a goddess due to her gift."

    As far as I'm aware, her only other significant attachment has been with Forge, Native American, not a white man who has sullied her beyond all redemption, though I dare say she's flirted with a few 'alpha males' because no one else would be worth her time and interest.

    Bearing in mind also that she is in fact a fictional character, you might also consider:

    Storm (Marvel Comics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Storm was one of the first black comic book characters, and the first black female, to play either a major or supporting role in the big two comic book houses, Marvel Comics and DC Comics.[46] Within these two companies, her 1975 debut was only preceded by a few male black characters. In Marvel Comics, preceding characters were Gabe Jones (debuted in 1963), Black Panther (1966), Bill Foster (1966), Spider-Man supporting characters Joe Robertson (1967), his son Randy (1968), Hobie Brown (the Prowler) & The Falcon (1969), Luke Cage (1972), Blade (1973) and Abe Brown (1974). In DC Comics, she was preceded by Teen Titans member Mal Duncan who debuted in 1970, Green Lantern wielder John Stewart (1971), and Mister Miracle protégé Shilo Norman (1973); she preceded DC's other black heroes, Legion of Super-Heroes member Tyroc (who debuted in 1976), Black Lightning (1977), Cyborg (1980), Vixen (1981) and Amazing Man (1983). While not the first black character to be introduced, since her creation Storm has remained the most successful and recognizable black superheroine.

    Gladys L. Knight, author of Female Action Heroes: A Guide to Women in Comics, Video games, Film, and Television (2010) wrote that "two defining aspects of her persona are her racial identity and her social status as a mutant." The X-Men have symbolically represented marginalized minorities and the debut of the X-Men series coincided with the African-American Civil Rights Movement (1955–1968), in which their plight as mutants mirrored that of African Americans.[46] Storm's creation in particular "was during the heyday of blaxploitation films, which featured, among others, Pam Grier, an African American actress who is considered a pioneer in female action hero films."

    Please feel free to resume your foaming and frothing again.

    Others in the audience might like to consider that if someone wants to sell them horseshit and call it beefburger, that's on that person.

    If they agree, dignify the proposition and the proposer, and indeed, keep going back for more, that's on them...

    Cheers
    Geoff Thorne likes this.

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    Consultant of Cool Geoff Thorne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter J Poole View Post
    And crap like this is exactly why I have you filed under 'crazy as a loon', right next to Dusty and a couple of others...
    Uh-oh!! Somebody's off their meds again...

    Never mind that you manage to take a serious discussion about racism and manage to subvert it into your incesant tirade of "DC roolz and Marvel droolz" - something I'd actually class as grotesque, rather than just typically pathetic.
    Never mind that YOU have not contributed in any worthwhile way to said discussion in any productive way...

    Never mind that you try to steer a conversation into comparing Marvel and DC characters 'apart from the Black Panther' - ignore the nuke, we can match them bullet for bullet with muskets...
    Never mind that I wasn't the person that sparked that aspect of the discussion to begin with...

    You come out with drivel as deranged as 'Storm is blonde'...
    Blonde and blue eyed. How is that drivel? Is it not accurate, yes or no?

    Yes, and so is Lorna Dane.
    Are you serious????

    Since when is Polaris blue eyed and blonde haired? I know I don't read Marvel, but have they changed her appearance, in a "Sunspot is no longer black" way, since this:



    This is has been Polaris thru out the decades. Green eyes and hair. As far as I've seen, she has been consistently depicted this way. So WTF are you even talking about?

    But even if she was recently depicted differently, WTF does that have to do with Storm? Granted, green hair doesn't make sense (green eyes does, though), but perhaps she is dying her hair green.

    So, are you implying that's what Storm has been doing? Since she was a little girl?



    If I have to explain to you, who have more or less admitted that you do not know, understand, or even care about issues such as racial identity, why an African woman being depicted this way is an issue, then clearly you A) have no business in this discussion (didn't you bow out numerous times already?), and B) are not on par with me as a person to have this convo with in the first place.

    Moreover:

    Storm (Marvel Comics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "In Uncanny X-Men #102 (December 1976), Claremont established Storm's backstory. Ororo's mother, N'Dare, is the princess of a tribe in Kenya and descended from of a long line of African witch-priestesses with white hair, blue eyes, and a natural gift for sorcery. N'Dare falls in love with and marries American photojournalist David Munroe. They move to Harlem in uptown New York City, where Ororo is born. They move to Egypt and lived there until they die during the Suez Crisis in a botched aircraft attack, leaving six-year-old Ororo as an orphan."
    "A long line of witch priestesses"? None of which we've seen prior or since the creation of that character. That sounds made up, to justify giving her white features.



    Storm's father was a very ethnic black man. Storm's mother is from Kenya.... I can't find a single real-life picture of ethnically homogeneous Kenyans with blue eyes and STRAIGHT blonde hair. So where did Claremont get that idea from?

    Is this the same Claremont that did this:

    Five Goofiest Moments in Uncanny X-Men #98-102 | Comics Should Be Good! @ Comic Book Resources



    So Storm can do who-da-what-now?

    Yeah, all this shows that Claremont and numerous others writers in Marvel's history just didn't know what to do with this Black woman.

    Ororo's relationship with T'Challa goes back to when they met as teenagers and were romantically attracted to each other:

    Storm - X-Men Wiki - Wolverine, Marvel Comics, Origins

    "During her travels, Ororo naively accepted a ride from a complete stranger and was almost raped by him. Forced to defend herself, Ororo killed the man. From that moment, she swore never to take another human life. Ororo wandered for thousands of miles, almost dying during her trek across the Sahara Desert. Her mutant ability to psionically control the weather emerged soon after, and she was able to use them to rescue T'Challa, a prince of the African nation of Wakanda, from his would-be kidnappers. The pair spent much time together, however T'Challa's duties as a prince prevented them from further exploring their burgeoning mutual attraction. Finally, Ororo reached her ancestors' homeland on the Serengeti Plain in Kenya. She was taken in by an elderly tribal woman named Ainet who taught her to be responsible with her powers. Ororo soon came to be the object of worship of the local tribes who believed her to be a goddess due to her gift."
    You mean to say, all of this was RETCONNED in. It's not a part of Storm's original history. Neither Storm's nor BP's original history had made no mention of either of them. It was retconned in as a means of putting those two characters together eventually.

    As far as I'm aware, her only other significant attachment has been with Forge, Native American, not a white man who has sullied her beyond all redemption, though I dare say she's flirted with a few 'alpha males' because no one else would be worth her time and interest.
    Then you don't know anything about Storm's past. I have already listed the characters she had been involved with, within the X-Men, and which books they occured in.

    --Wolverine
    --Cable
    --Forge
    --That surfer dude from X-Treme X-Men
    --Bishop

    LOL @ "no other person was worth her time". Really? Based on what, exactly? It was the same Claremont that put her with the surfer dude in X-Treme X-Men, BTW. But I guess that was worth her time, while she was on a mission to find Destiny's something or other. Right?


    Bearing in mind also that she is in fact a fictional character, you might also consider:

    Storm (Marvel Comics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Storm was one of the first black comic book characters, and the first black female, to play either a major or supporting role in the big two comic book houses, Marvel Comics and DC Comics.[46] Within these two companies, her 1975 debut was only preceded by a few male black characters. In Marvel Comics, preceding characters were Gabe Jones (debuted in 1963), Black Panther (1966), Bill Foster (1966), Spider-Man supporting characters Joe Robertson (1967), his son Randy (1968), Hobie Brown (the Prowler) & The Falcon (1969), Luke Cage (1972), Blade (1973) and Abe Brown (1974). In DC Comics, she was preceded by Teen Titans member Mal Duncan who debuted in 1970, Green Lantern wielder John Stewart (1971), and Mister Miracle protégé Shilo Norman (1973); she preceded DC's other black heroes, Legion of Super-Heroes member Tyroc (who debuted in 1976), Black Lightning (1977), Cyborg (1980), Vixen (1981) and Amazing Man (1983). While not the first black character to be introduced, since her creation Storm has remained the most successful and recognizable black superheroine.

    Gladys L. Knight, author of Female Action Heroes: A Guide to Women in Comics, Video games, Film, and Television (2010) wrote that "two defining aspects of her persona are her racial identity and her social status as a mutant." The X-Men have symbolically represented marginalized minorities and the debut of the X-Men series coincided with the African-American Civil Rights Movement (1955–1968), in which their plight as mutants mirrored that of African Americans.[46] Storm's creation in particular "was during the heyday of blaxploitation films, which featured, among others, Pam Grier, an African American actress who is considered a pioneer in female action hero films."
    What does this have to do with anything? So, fictional characters can't have an impact on the pysche of a people?

    Please feel free to resume your foaming and frothing again.
    You seem to have me mixed up with YOU. Please feel free to read my signature again. Just when I was contemplating removing it, you come along and confirm why I shouldn't.

    Others in the audience might like to consider that if someone wants to sell them horseshit and call it beefburger, that's on that person. If they agree, dignify the proposition and the proposer, and indeed, keep going back for more, that's on them...
    Cheers
    Noted. Out of the mouths of babes and idiots...
    Last edited by SAMURAI36; 09-24-2012 at 01:39 PM.

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